The Associated Worlds

First!

2

19:15

Peak Musk is imminent

I'm going to have to repost this at the top of every channel, aren't I? Code of Conduct Supplemental Supplemental I am first. All others are second or subsequent. No-one needs to state this in any channel. Ever.

"First!" is a super nono

19:16

may have caused that rule

19:18

In the Garden of Eden Adam said First! and it's been downhill ever since

It’s a meme Channel, there’s no better way to start it than a dead YT meme

There's dank, and then there's mildewed.

GTFO my lawn remembers it from ./ (edited)

Usenet .

Ah, First Ones are among us. I thought your kind had all left beyond the rim

mailing lists.

19:26

We hold on, and plot to return the internet to renew past glories....once it stops being September

WHAT IS DEAD CAN NEVER DIE.

I have heard legends that there is one here who stalked the halls of the Scary Devil Monastery

Many years ago, but then I recovered. Mostly.

There is a webcomic on webtoons called 'stack overflow'.

19:29

I found that pretty #dank. (edited)

It's true. Many earthquakes during the Great Leap Forward were caused by spontaneous happy dance outbreaks among obese Chinese peasants.

Honestly I'm not sure how a habitat of four people (like Mars One) could sustain a market economy.

Families usually don't operate on a market

19:37

solved problem

19:37

well, sort of. As the number of disasters we euphamistically call "families" attest

It probably could. As I say, 'The market... Finds a way...'

Sure they do, except in the case of children who tend to be serfs in effect.

I mean, sure you probably could transition to a market once the habitats and population have expanded sufficiently to allow some wriggle room

Hell, they'd better. A good recipe for a happy marriage, IMO, does not involve ignoring your promises to your spouse and not respecting their shit.

19:40

And if you've got two people on a desert island and they don't steal from each other but instead, I don't know, swap fish for coconuts or even come to a voluntary agreement to pool all their fish and coconuts, you've got a functioning market economy right there.

But the early colonists are likely to be shipped there to fulfill a specific job, you can’t leave that to chance.

You’d probably still see it with minor things. Trading different food stuffs in rations, for example

1

Contracts are part of a market economy, and one presumes that they have signed 'em.

@MarcusAurelius Thus beginneth the Market

At the very least it’s a locally planned economy.

19:43

Like a company town

Yeah, I’ve never disagreed that old style Marxist communism can work on small scales

19:43

Especially when it’s a microcosm of a larger market economy

With a sufficiently small N and sufficiently little requirements any system can work

I've read posts you people would not believe. Flame wars in sci.math between Weemba and Maroney. I've watched political correctness being formed in soc.women. All these moments will be lost in time, as the archives decay. Time to log. (edited)

2

After all, it’s a lot easier to do the whole “everyone owns (basically) everything” when you’re still operating on the old human tribal scale

Oh, Marxist communism would be an absolute disaster. Kibbutz-style communalism, that could work on a small scale, but if you try to run your colony infrastructure using LTV and central planning, everyone'll die gasping within a week.

Point conceded on lack of knowledge of the shades of red

What do you mean turning this random knob isn't just as valuable as turning the on switch of the oxygen recycler?

Well, not likely to be that many luxury goods to compensate the more valuable colonists until you've built up the local industry or more regular shipping to Terra.

Of course, the thing about kibbutzim and even good old-fashioned hippie communes is that most of them that don't go full cultist don't go the whole everything-is-everyone's route, but are basically voluntary resource-sharing and labor-pooling agreements. (Which makes 'em kind of like corporations, in a sense, but don't tell them that.)

19:53

To my mind, that makes 'em part of the market economy, and even my most dogmatic libertist moments don't have a problem with them.

Y'know, Kibbutzim and Marxism are kind of going in opposite directions. One is laying the groundwork for building a state, the other is breaking down the state.

Yeah, but unless you're a Marxist-Primitivist, it also makes it pretty much impossible to break down the state.

20:00

Markets can coordinate global supply chains, but hey, can't have any of those. Central planning can do it (incredibly badly, but so it goes), but that implies the existence of central planners.

Yeah, I don't know what Karl was smoking to think that absolute dictators would ever voluntarily give up power.

Without either of those... well, good luck assembling any kind of complex good or service. Given that even village blacksmiths in the dark ages depended on extensive supply chains, welp, I'm not even gonna speculate on just how far you'd have to regress before hitting sustainability.

maybe (I don't really know much about the guy) he was an idealist who didn't expect people to try to put his first draft into service, in pretty much the opposite environment he was planning around?

One of the odder Tumblr threads I've seen suggested forming an economic unit out of a polyamorous relationship group (polycule?) who were each specialized in a different craft.

Tumblr logic at its finest

Aside: if polycule isn't a word already, it needs to be.

Apparently it is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycule

Polycule

A polycule refers collectively to all of the people who are in a relationship with one or more other members of the group. The term is a portmanteau of "polyamory" and "molecule".

Marx, to my knowledge, never really worked out a coherent plan on how to implement his entire ideal process.

20:32

And given the era he was writing in, his position on it requiring forceful struggle is somewhat understandable. He got to see the French put down a rebellion over a lot of the things he had written about. But he also didn't write off a peaceful slow transition either (A later speaking tour in the Netherlands had him commenting that he felt a peaceful changeover was possible in the US, Britian, and possibly the Netherlands, though he wasn't as farmilliar with their own government dynamic so he wasn't sure)

And of course the revolutions happened in a couple countries with the most entrenched ruling classes of the modern world (edited)

countries that weren't of the kind/makeup that Marx thought was conducive to his theories, either

20:39

[also, obligatory "those who make peaceful revolution impossible make armed revolution inevitable" comment]

Amusing idea for an alternate timeline: in the process of researching Capital, Marx discovers Subjective Marginalism, and kicks off the marginal revolution early. (edited)

Yeah, Polycule is def a word.

20:50

All the poly people I know use it.

20:51

Esp rationalist types.

what is Subjective Marginalism?

Subjective Value Theory + Marginalism

which are?

STV == Things don't have inherent value. They have value because entities want them, and the value is measured in how much they are willing to pay

21:11

Marg == The cost / demand is measured at the margin. If it costs 50k to setup a factory, but production costs are .10/widget the price will be determined by the .10

Urgh, so the combo of two not great things

STV is all there is. LTV only approximates reality if you bolt enough epicycles on to make it a clunky bug ridden immitation of STV (edited)

Taken together they are the foundation of modern economics. They explain a lot of previously mysterious things

(the demand example of Marg, well both actually, is that you will pay a king's ransom for water if you are dying in a desert, but after the first few gallons your price will fall drasticly)

Er. No, your factory's costs are ABSOLUTELY part of your cost and cannot be ignored

if fact if a pipe bursts and your house is flooded you will pay someone to take the water away

21:16

well duh the price doesn't start there

Given STV + marginalism were independently discovered several times later in the 19th century, It seems reasonable that had Marx stumbled upon different books in the library, he could have thought of it too.

Yeah, but in the long run capital costs amortize to zero.

after your 100000000000th widget it costs you .10 to run off another one

Doesn’t sound dissimilar to what I read in Wealth of Nations, a couple centuries before Marx

And personally I hate the argument that the value is purely the price willing to pay, because a unit of food is more valuable to someone about to die of famine than a rich glutton, but the glutton can outbid

Adam Smith got one thing very very wrong, which Marx then picked up: He held to Labor Theory of Value (edited)

Value! = pure cost

but all other theories of value are beset by the economic version of Plato's Cave. You never escape it no matter how hard you try

Reality doesn’t change because you hate it, though. But anyway, as per recent posts, value to someone isn’t what you can pay for it, it’s what you’d be willing to exchange for it/exchange it for.

incedentally this objection to STV is rooted directly in marginalism, so, uh, oopsie for the objector

(And prices, of course, aren’t even that. They’re exchange-values, which are what you get when values in the form of bid/ask prices - which are based on values - meet each other and do the supply/demand dance.)

True. Once someone has fully groked that they can safely use the shorthand, but most people don't. Expected insanity ensues

So, would the Twilight Zone episode “The Rip Van Winkle Caper” be a good illustration of STV?

The prior models of value were all objective...which left the puzzle of why people exchanged things at all. If this gourmet hot dog is worth the same as 10 dollars, why would I exchange the $10 for it? If the objective value of one is less than the other, then why would the person who is getting the "worse" end of the deal bother? (edited)

of particular note was the Labor Theory of Value, which in its base form leads to the conclusion that digging a hole in a random location is just as valuable as digging it on top of a vein of iron. Cue epicycle of "socially necessary labor" (just smile and nod and they might not see the subjective behind the curtian)

@john dougan(his grace/his grace) That might explain the goldbug commenting on the last Eldraeverse post.

(I'm late responding, I know, but my gripe is that like many economic theories it ignores externalities for short term gain. Give the rich guy the food and the starving guy dies; now you've lost any investment the economy has made in him AND any future economic contributions, meaning the trade is overall a net loss instead of the market working properly)

You see, the rich man who doesn’t set his prices low enough for the hungry to afford gets a brick through his skull when the famine outlasts the poor’s possessions.

05:49

It might not be moral, but it’s what happens

I know it's what happens, but economic models don't account for that

The problem with that is that a lot of poor people have to starve before the starving poor people can actually beat the rich dudes bodyguards in a fight

And this is why so many people

08:33

Resort to gommunism

Economic models don't account for communist revolutions? who would of thought?

1

@Morgrim Moon It's not the same thing, though. That you have externalities - i.e., aren't accounting for all of the values involved - is an orthogonal and subsequent issue to what value actually is . On the flip side, the STV is the only one that can explain why food is worth more to the hungry...

'the logical fallacy behind a lot of libertarianism is that they think they can find a solution that won't leave some faction desperately unhappy' -paraphrasing Ken Burnside (edited)

10:56

You know, he is right, it's just that I think wannabe tyrants can all get bent :p

10:56

So this isn't such a big problem

"Satisfying values is a hard problem, so let's not bother trying!"

He also thinks government acts as a remove on that animus

10:57

Also a paraphrase but pretty close to the original wording I think

11:00

Which, like -- Ken, I know you're busy looking at city planning councils to get inspiration for the 3-gen rule, but have you paid any attention at all to US politics in the last five years

11:01

sigh

I do believe it omits one particular obvious feedback cycle: Inasmuch as politics is the means to coerce people, it's inherently threatening . City planning councils wave around the power to control what you do with your own property, or seize it under eminent domain (quite possibly to hand it off to private developers), and so on and so forth. Of course their meetings are bitter and divided, because they have the power to screw you over good and proper. As for national politics -- yeah, we have two parties, as proxies for cultural factions, fighting for control of the instrumentality which can exert control over an ever-increasing number of aspects of daily life, backed up by dispossession, imprisonment, violence, and death. And somehow people are surprised that participants are playing by ex-threat rules? What the fuck?

11:31

(Side note: this and other previous non-meme discussions should probably move to #random, since #dank is not intended to be the new #random .)

"By the power vested in me by the Officio Prefectus of the Astra Militatrum and by the God-Emperor of Mankind, I now pronounce you man and wife. You may now FIX BAYONETS! THE ENEMY IS UPON US! TO ARMS! TO ARMS!"

11:39

tank boi protector of hoomans

1

https://i.imgur.com/imk5Kpm.png

@Ian Bruene thank you, Inquisitor! You're fighting the good fight!

12:58

this pupper has my vote for President (edited)

13:12

3

13:17

@KAL_9000 should be mansa musa

Needs moar Liberty Prime.

@BizarroLand ♀ Beating Scrooge McDuck? In Mansa Musa's dreams!

Sorry to say this is how a lot of people act. You can say the same thing about some liberals and conservative arguments.

I am but a simple apprentice, studying at the meme-forge: https://imgflip.com/i/2upzgf

09:31

Today in shit statists say (edited)

09:32

Tell this to Costa Rica or Iceland

or Singapore

Those are all former colonies that were cut loose when their sovereigns decided they were too much trouble to keep.

https://www.amazon.com/Melanies-Marvelous-Measles-Stephanie-Messenger-ebook/dp/B0792X6MYT/ Anti-vaxxer writes a book. The (completely sarcastic) five-star reviews are both award-worthy rebuttals to a crazy person and dank in their own right

Melanie's Marvelous Measles - Kindle edition by Stephanie Messenge...

Melanie's Marvelous Measles - Kindle edition by Stephanie Messenger. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading Melanie's Marvelous Measles.

Wow this book was sick! Almost as sick as my toddler after I kept throwing him at kids in the ICU of my local hospital because I like to vaccinate old school style. So far he's got measles, smallpox, polio and a bunch of other stuff that he'll never have to worry about catching later in life because he already has it. Anyway I loved this book, easily my favorite of the year and gave me the inspiration to write my own informational health story entitled "The AIDS Diet: You'll Be Fine!" My young nephew is going to make the illustrations for it just as soon as he gets over his crippling encephalitis that he developed as a result of his measles. I guess it hits these young kids harder or somethin' I dunno I don't have measles.

DO IT ELON

12:19

Oh, yeah, he's not a natural-born American (although he is a citizen). Well, there's always this position available!

https://i.imgur.com/v7NSHuL.png

I feel like I recognize that thing from somewhere..

looks very Attack on Titan but more mechanical

If you discount the size, I was thinking XCOM, but that definitely isn't where it's from. (edited)

I mean, it is, it’s just crossing a big gap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azdYPCHzwJk

Sofilein

Will You Be an Angel for a Hopeless Tank?

https://generated.inspirobot.me/a/nqPk5Ad0eL.jpg https://inspirobot.me/

I Am InspiroBot

I am an artificial intelligence dedicated to generating unlimited amounts of unique inspirational quotes for endless enrichment of pointless human existence.

14:53

Not exactly memey, but fun.

14:54

ALL TRAINS LEAD TO AUSCHWITZ WAKE UP SHEEPLE (edited)

08:26

Poe's Law intensifies

I like trains. I wish they weren't such a checkbox item for the fucking socialists

Are they?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHkKJfcBXcw

TomSka

I LIKE TRAINS (asdfmovie song)

08:32

i'm honestly just shitposting off of r/insanepeoplefacebook rn

I hate how people get this worked up over mostly arbitrary political distinctions

08:44

oh no they shouldn't have cured it

08:44

FUCK THESE PEOPLE!

08:49

https://twitter.com/i/status/1102184114600333313

Chandan Sinha (@OrangeDurito)

@elonmusk @Space_Station Docking sequence on Interstellar music. https://t.co/M7V309FFcN

Retweets

2124

Likes

11369

@KAL_9000 cool yer jets

@BizarroLand ♀ not when the life of a small child is being threatened by these idiots

Oh yeah

https://external-preview.redd.it/mp4/xZNHA2bFOftWKs85jCstGy0878fSp3lpHSgQeoFmDQM-source.mp4?s=41d1805c9a8400fef9d3fd3942154513d8807557

13:06

13:07

As long as we're stealing everyone's oil, I've got just one question. Where the hell's mine ?

6

from reading that, Austrian is just Keynesian with extra bullshit tacked on

whatdya mean

19:10

like the austrian one seems exactingly specific

not really. They made it longer to make it more of a meme. The first sentence is enough

me whenever i try to play pokemon

"We don't see anything worth preserving this cycle"

3

@Zarpaulek But who'd be saying that?

12:08

The Reapers, that's what they do.

12:10

Distill the galactic empire of the current 100,000 year cycle down into brain slurry and make it into new Reapers in order to "save" some remnant of civilization from the organic-synthetic conflict. (edited)

12:11

That Crucible kid was a pretty good example of the problems with paperclip maximizers, incidentally

Dude I haven't even beaten ME1

12:13

inb4 'it's a 12 year old game get over it'

Oh, should I have spoilered out the ending to that seven year old game?

Well I actually knew already, but KAL probably doesn't